Talk:Apostles' Creed

Whoever wrote this, please clarify: "For this reason, it was held to predate the Nicene Creed in medieval Latin tradition."

Whoever wrote this, please clarify: "For this reason, it was held to predate the Nicene Creed in medieval Latin tradition." Was its predating of the Nicene Creed held/believed during medieval Latin tradition? By whom? Or was it vaguely (when?) held/believed to predate a version of the Nicene Creed that came from a medieval Latin tradition? By whom? Or something else? Whatever the meaning, can the writer please clarify? (And cite?) Misty MH (talk) 14:13, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

This article is CONFUSING, and seems to contradict itself

Can someone who actually knows this topic – without a church tradition to support – please clarify, clean it up, and remove wording that creates apparently internal inconsistencies?

Perhaps just some examples:

• "A creed that is virtually identical to the current one is recorded by Faustus of Riez", before 495 CE.

and

• "the earliest appearance of what we know as the Apostles' Creed was in the De singulis libris canonicis scarapsus ("Excerpt from Individual Canonical Books") of St. Pirminius (Migne, Patrologia Latina 89, 1029 ff.), written between 710 and 714."

and

• Other things referring to other dates.

Having these and other dates all over the place is extremely confusing.

The article should perhaps be reorganized BY DATE, because acting like the present form is actually a creed of the Apostles, when the earliest appearance of it is 600 years after the last apostle was dead, makes little sense to a common reader, the way it has been worded.

Please word and reword the article in a scholarly way vs. from some believer or church position? Thank you! Misty MH (talk) 14:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Jumping: "The phrase "descendit ad inferos" ("he descended into hell") is not found in the Nicene Creed."

This phrase all of a sudden appears in this article – about the so-called Apostles Creed – with no warning: "The phrase "descendit ad inferos" ("he descended into hell") is not found in the Nicene Creed.". Why? It is in a paragraph that compares the Apostles' Creed document to other documents, but without stating this, without giving a reason, and without any kind of transition. Is it trying to show evolution of the document? Differences that are considered contradictory? Expansion of one document compared to another? Just simple interest in seeing random or significant differences between creeds? The document needs some flow, and some rearranging of information – and transitions – so that the readers don't get frustrated or confused. Misty MH (talk) 14:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. The part about Hell vs Lower regions of the earth is super interesting, it would be a great mitzvah for someone knowledgeable to expand and clean up. Several versions are mentioned; if they are to be mentioned, there should be at least one sentence describing the most significant variation.

It's very likely that qualified editors are walking by saying "golly that sounds interesting but I only know how to clean up or complete parts of that section, but I can't see how to do so without removing or muddying other parts."

Would it be appropriate to move this section to an article on "Variations in the Apostle's creed"? I suspect that it would have just the right amount of incompleteness plus "SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG" energy to better allow incremental improvement.

_______

To help motivate that SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG energy, here is my best guess for the story it's telling, with placeholders for indirections I cannot understand and/or resolve:

> ... A version that is identical to the current one with the single exception of "descendit ad inferos" ("he descended into hell", in the Apostles' Creed) in place of !something~ ("lower earthly regions", in the Nicene creed) is recorded in the late 5th century. The Nicene creed echoes Ephesians 4:9, "κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς" ("he descended into the lower earthly regions"). This phrase (WHICH PHRASE) first appeared in one of the two versions of Rufinus (d. 411), the Creed of Aquileia, and then did not appear again in any version of the creed until AD 650. However, the Old Roman Creed (WHICH ONE IS THIS LIKE) remained the standard liturgical text of the Roman Church throughout the 4th to 7th centuries. It was replaced by the "Gallic" version of the Apostles' Creed (WHICH ONE IS THIS LIKE) only in the later 8th century, under Charlemagne, who imposed it throughout his dominions. Mrflip (talk) 20:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

catholic- universal

There is no mention of holy catholic church being substituted by holy universal church in some Church of England churches of evangelical persuasion because for newcomers catholic is misunderstood as to it's meaning. REVUpminster (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Credo in the Eucharistic rite

To my knowledge, the creed is said at the end of the liturgy of the word, not during the Eucharistic rite. 80.192.227.82 (talk) 22:51, 16 February 2023 (UTC)